eBay pricing promo: final value fees capped at £1 for eligible private sellers

By Dan Wilson October 6, 2017 - 6:45 am

It looks like there’s another eBay pricing promo is in the offing and this one is for UK private sellers as per usual. The offer is by invitation only.

Under the terms they say: “Create up to 100 listing(s) on in an eligible category, starting during the promotion period, using the auction-style or fixed price format, and pay a maximum of £1 in final value fees per listing if they sell.Before your 100 listings start, you need to have actively opted in to the promotion via the RSVP link shown in the marketing communication. You won’t pay an insertion fee for each of the 100 listings. Listing upgrade fees will still apply and will be charged according to the eBay fees policy.”

It’s canny timing for an eBay pricing promo. They obviously want to see a boost to both listings and revenues as they enter that critical fourth quarter. You can find a link to the eBay Terms and Conditions here.

Who is eligible for the eBay pricing promo?

“ registered private sellers who have been invited to participate and have actively opted in to the promotion via the RSVP link shown in the marketing communication. Participation is linked to the seller’s account and is not transferable. Sellers must be registered as a resident in the UK.”

  • cockneydevil
    10 months ago

    I suppose our business fees rising by an indeterminate amount will subsidize this again.

    Im getting sick to the back teeth of ebay trying to induce private sellers to sell more , but putting ever larger hurdles in the way of businesses meaning they sell less .

    If they thought as much of us as they do of Joe soap , they wouldnt need this type of nonsense in the first place
    Sellers buy too , and the more I sell, the more chance I’ll buy other stuff .

    Just do what you are supposed to do.
    let me do what I’m supposed to

    The last thing we need is a new influx of sellers that dont know the rules

  • Ian A
    10 months ago

    Honestly what is the point in being a business seller and paying shop fees when it’s basically free for individuals to use the site

    As a sole trader I’d be better off leaving and just using various private accounts

  • Leader of the Banned
    10 months ago

    This is the third time they have rolled out this promo in 7 weeks. This is unheard of in such a short space of time. Maybe amateur sellers are missing the promos due to the new selling hub. I have never figured out why eBay don’t email their promotions.

    Whatever happened to the 50,000 free listing for business sellers?

    Currently you get 100 free listings a day if you are not registered as a business. Plus 20 listings a month & a 20p selling fee if you sell something. That’s up to 3,020 FREE listings a month for private sellers while business sellers are paying £82.79 a month for 1500 listings plus an 8-10% selling fee.

    What became of eBay’s “level playing field”

    • Wyn
      9 months ago

      Some do get emails re promotions, I don’t. A quick check with two family members who are also ‘amateur’ sellers – only 1 in 3 of us has this promotion.
      Potential to list 3,020 items per month could end at any time! – anyway who has time to list more than, say, a dozen items per day?! Sales are so slow that a reduced fee helps balance all the Best Offers I am accepting. I think it’s tough for everyone. Just wish they’d stop changing stuff – bulk re-listing now – that benefits no-one.

  • Alex Peters
    9 months ago

    I think Ebay are desperate for more money.

    They deliberately make their accounting obfuscated to hide their greed.

    Has anyone looked at their fees compared to 12 months ago. My featured shop has seen my fees increase (like for like) from last October 8.33% this October 10.55%

    I have examined my invoices in great details and cannot identify where these increases have been added.

    Even the invoice totals don’t add up and there is no information where they get the figures from

    Insertion fees
    Advanced listing upgrade fees
    Final value fees
    Subscription and one time fees
    Postage fees
    Discounts and credits

  • jef
    9 months ago

    Ebay seems to be the biggest secret online scam site in history. Utter crooks.

  • Rob
    9 months ago

    They are having a crack down on any businesses who give contact details in messages yet keep giving free listings and low final value fees away. There are countless sellers who sell similar stock to myself who are registered as private sellers so pay very little in the way of fees to ebay yet clearly run a business.

  • alan paterson
    9 months ago

    So many Ebay haters on here. I feel sorry for Ebay sometimes. Even when they offer free stuff or run a promotion they are barraged by negative comments.

    Really…………look at the comments above. Its a promotion guys …… its a positive thing!

    If you put the same amount of energy into developing your business on Ebay rather than complaining about everything……… and I mean everything………

    • 9 months ago

      Alan Paterson AKA eBay’s Chief cheerleader, thinks

      “So many Ebay haters on here. I feel sorry for Ebay sometimes. Even when they offer free stuff or run a promotion they are barraged by negative comments.

      Really…………look at the comments above. Its a promotion guys …… its a positive thing!

      If you put the same amount of energy into developing your business on Ebay rather than complaining about everything……… and I mean everything………”

      Truely alan paterson, you are an idiot.

      eBay itself? I love it, the way it’s laid out and how the site performs? PERfect, but the WAY it is run? the disHONEST way it conducts business, and the pathetic one sided feedback system that prevents , for whatEVER excuse, the ability of a seller to leave a buyer anything BUT positive feedback, or no feedback at all?. THIS aspect of eBay stinks, IMHO

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      @removaldog. I don’t think I am the one being the idiot here. You say you love ebay.,….but then accuse them of being dishonest? with no substantial follow up or back up. and the reason you don’t like the platform (a contradiction from your initial statement is that you can’t leave a buyer bad feedback – something that was introduced 10 years ago (and with good reason). Also – it is no longer a parameter that is assessed or counted for your seller performance – so where is the logic that this is the worst thing about ebay? A percentage that is not even counted?

      If you don’t mind me saying your post is confusing and makes little sense. Are you still at school?

      It was good you copy and pasted by initial post into yours. You should read it again and take heed.

      Also…you did not address my point. Ebay run a promotion and there are nothing but negative comments…….and i still think that applies although a lot of new posts have came in this evening. All negative…….

      No, I don’t think i am the one being the idiot lol.

    • Alex Peters
      9 months ago

      Ebay is shit period!

      They are a load of conniving crooks who operate in ways that would be illegal on the high street.

      Someone makes a false claim (to avoid return postage costs) Ebay immediately put a hold on your money in YOUR bank (Paypal) who are SUPPOSEDLY nothing to do with Ebay.

      They would need a County Court judgement in real life.

      Ebay = shit.

      And, yes I believe Ebay moderators are using all the forums on the internet to counteract negative opinions and promote Ebay.

  • PayPalUser
    9 months ago

    Hi Alan,

    I read your positive Tamebay comments about how great ebay is with interest.

    I don’t agree with any of them, you see as an eBay seller with over 60000 positive feedbacks, they treat us like crap, and hide our listings.

    Best Match – As an example, we sell a certain type of hat, we have the second cheapest price of this item by £0.05,

    we offer eBay Premium Service
    we are TRS
    we offer Argos Click and Collect

    but when searching for the item using its name, our hat is the 40th down the list using eBay’s default Best Match.

    Searching using lowest price puts us second in the list.

    Of the 39 sellers above us in the list some are not TRS, they don’t offer eBay Premium Service, are dearer that us on price and have never sold any of the item, yet they’re higher up the page.

    Contacting CS about this is a complete waste of time, tried it several times and they reply with their standard responses and don’t want to know.

    And that is why I despise eBay.

    • Dave
      9 months ago

      I have to agree. It’s the lack of communication and lack of basic help from eBay that grates. We’ve done just shy of £1million of sales on eBay in the last couple of years, yet still we get connected to the useless support in Manila (or where ever it is), not an email, phone call or anything from eBay to help us grow our business and therefore their business.

      God knows how you get a mythical eBay Concierge assigned to your account.

      On our Amazon account (around 1/5th of the eBay turnover), we have 2 people in the UK that we can call and email directly to assist us. They actually pick up the phone and ring me up or send us emails advising of up and coming launches or deals or asking how they can help.

      eBay = firefighting to accommodate their latest change
      Amazon = helping us grow our business

    • 9 months ago

      I had to call Amazon CS today, and it didn’t hurt a bit.

      I’ve always found them one of the best to deal with, but my idea of perFECtion would be the eBay site as is (it’s functionality) with Amazon business ethos, that doesn’t (as with eBay) include collusion with scammers, in pursuit of profit.

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      So you don’t like how Cassini works. that seems to be your gripe and your not happy with your position in the search results?

      Boohoo…..Everyone wants to be at the top for the best keywords – guess what – they can’t!

      I think you are forgetting it is ebays platform and they have no obligation to place you at the top. Maybe they know you are posting negatives on here and are demoting you. But I do see that you (as most do) hide their name.

      Oh, and the reason they don’t help when you phone CS is that they are not trained on how Cassini works…….and that is deliberate. They simply don’t know and are only allowed to talk in general terms. Personally I quite like this approach – this way you don’t have sellers manipulating search results as some did in the past.

      You guys are just proving my first point. Too many ebay haters on the platform. Why do you even trade on the platform if you despise it so. And you call me an idiot…….lol

  • Jonah
    9 months ago

    #Dave I feel your pain brother. Exactly the same here, we pump tens of thousands of pounds a year into eBay coffers yet receive next to no customer support at all.
    What hurts even more is that a friend who has a private account with less than 30 feedback, has recently received an offer of eBay concierge support- and he isn’t even a business!!! He hasn’t either ever sold anything on eBay!!!
    What a farce, you couldn’t make it up.

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      @ Jonah – your friend has perhaps been invited into concierge as a buyer. The Concierge Team have “Concierge Buyers” as well as Concierge Sellers.

      Even when I was not in Concierge I always found that the normal customer service done their best. I don’t relate to your post at all.

  • Jonah
    9 months ago

    @Alan, that’s the thing my friend,,, you completely miss the point. Concierge…… Why feel the need to differentiate between your customers,,,,, some getting superb customer service whilst others get close to none?
    I treat my customers all the same with great service and personal attention to detail,,,,, I don’t feel the need to dump some of them to a remote call centre in Manilla.
    Do you run a two tier customer service centre in your business?
    We don’t.

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      sorry Jonah, before Concierge I still believe that support was good. Not as good as Concierge I admit but I seldom had cause to complain over a 14 year period. If I wasn’t in concierge I would still be defending.

  • 9 months ago

    @alan paterson needs me to spell it out to him.

    Yes, I love eBay… the way it LOOKS, the way it is LAID OUT, the way I can search for an item, and select the criteria that matters to me. WATCH an item, check details, check the history of another bidder B4 I get involved in an auction with that person, contact a seller etc…etc…etc, do you get it now, ? it’s a rhetorical question.

    Love eBay, hate the way it is run, by muppets just like you I suspect. Still, you DO make me laugh.

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      The implication being that I work for Ebay? Rather weary of this. Again, I say positive things about Ebay and suddenly “I work for Ebay”. I think this perfectly proves my point about the “hate Ebay culture”.

      A poor, poor way of undermining someones post and trying in vain to win an argument. Happy to see some positive posts on this thread since my last.

      I don’t agree with your point though, it was unclear and your attempts to undermine me by implying I work for Ebay is unprofessional and puerile and I have heard it all before.

      Oh and if you “love Ebay ” as you claim: I dare you to write something positive…….go on…..I dare you…….

      If you don’t mind me quoting you:

      “the disHONEST way it conducts business, and the pathetic one sided feedback system that prevents , for whatEVER excuse, the ability of a seller to leave a buyer anything BUT positive feedback, or no feedback at all?. THIS aspect of eBay stinks, IMHO”

      Certainly doesn’t sound like someone who loves Ebay. Do you have a split personality thing going on?

  • 9 months ago

    “Rant” over…for now 🙂

  • Northumbrian
    9 months ago

    This bollocks about fees and how much is paid into eBay’s coffers
    Bemuses me
    Is a service that is used to make money
    if your not making money your crackers ,your giving eBay money
    So you can whinge and Moan

  • Rob
    9 months ago

    There are many great things going on with ebay like GSP, Click and Collect is ok when the buyer picks things up. There are also many things that could be better.

    Search results, where your listing ranks is different for different people when they are looking. I have spoken to ebay customer support about where listing rank and when searching on google chrome they come up in one place and when speaking to customer support who uses the exact same search they come up in a different place.

    If you get through to Manila, I just tend to say I want to speak to the Ireland customer support centre and hang up and try again till I get through to them as even if they don’t give you the answer you want they are much more understanding and helpful instead of repeating every question back to you and still don’t understand it.

    They don’t treat sellers the same way they expect sellers to treat their customers.

  • northumbrian
    9 months ago

    for many years unless it was a cataclysmic problem
    we never ever contacted customer support ,it was just not good for our blood pressure,
    though now we have nothing but praise for the concierge service its that good
    were astounded ebay dont charge extra for it,
    maybe this is why we have the concierge
    we do our job and get on with it ,
    we only contact ebay unless we really really really with extra really have to

  • Jonah
    9 months ago

    @Alan Paterson
    I understand entirely Alan- without concierge you would still be defending.
    The salient point being that without concierge, you stand a substantial chance of not having a chance to defend at all. The nonsense, outright disgraceful and to a point of comical “advice” we have received from custard support over the years is frankly shameful.

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      @ Jonah, one of my clients summed up Ebay customer support a few years ago by saying:

      ” Ebay CS don’t always get it right……..but (unlike other platforms)……they do TRY and get it right! ”

      It was a simple statement and I think summed up things perfectly. I have a lot of patience as long as they are at least TRYING to do things correctly and they are always honest. Sometimes expectations fall short of the mark but you get that in any company. Ebay CS has improved immensely since 2003 and (in my opinion) is far superior to any other platform out there.

      It gets to me when sellers confuse “getting their own way” with “dishonesty” like our colleague above “removaldog”. A negative won’t be removed or a case is closed in buyers favour and suddenly Ebay are called “dishonest”. I have even seen them called “crooks” on here. Its frustrating.

      To put in bluntly if you were a new seller (or buyer) would you want to use Ebay having read some of the posts on here? Folk are only damaging their own business by going on rants with persistent negativity. We should stop the mud slinging at Ebay and be working as a team buying off each other and encouraging others to do the same. Although that may sound a little naive most of the sellers on here are achieving the exact opposite.

      This should be a positive thread about another promotion run by Ebay to encourage growth on the platform. It was well written by Dan but almost immediately we get the mud slingers.

      At least we get balanced posts by Rob and Northumbrian who at least say things “as they are” rather than trying to dig up a negative perspective on a positive promotion.

    • Northumbrian
      9 months ago

      Before concierge over nearly 20 years
      Our experience with eBay customer support ,was horrendous they were utterly useless,indefensibly not fit for purpose

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      And just as I though you and I might be on the same page for once……..


    • northumbrian
      9 months ago

      same book different page
      we call it how it is
      ebays customer support is a joke if you dont have concierge

    • Kyle
      9 months ago

      Alan, I agree with you that a lot of people incorrectly blame Ebay for their problems. The Ebay forums and to a lesser extent Tamebay are full of people that believe Ebay is purposefully trying to keep them down.

      But when it comes to support Ebay is absolutely terrible. The guys at Manilla do not read anything you send to them and their responses are barely literate. It is clear that they are not hired on English skills and are instead random kids told to follow a flow chart with copy and paste responses. This is probably also why sellers are apparently getting banned for no reason.

      As Rob says, if you get through to Dublin and they still say “no” at least it only took 2 minutes to get to that stage and they can explain why, unlike Manilla which will usually takes 10-20 minutes on the phone or 5-10 emails back and forth.

      Then there’s also Ebay Developer Support which costs $75/hour! All their competitors offer free support to developers.

  • Wyn
    9 months ago

    Lol! Look out for another promo this weekend – they seem to be fortnightly.

  • 9 months ago

    @alan paterson is now under the impression I suffer from a split personality 🙂
    alan paterson is also under the impression I’m trying to “undermine” him, by suggesting he works for eBay? 🙂

    Alan paterson simply doesn’t listen, OR only hears what alan paterson want’s to hear me thinks.
    Alan paterson “dares me” to Say something nice about eBay?. Say something nice about eBay?. You idiot, eBay is NOT the problem, it’s the people who currently run it who are the problem, BTW it’s never crossed my mind that you work for eBay, however it did/has rapidly crossed my mind that you may be a complete dick.

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      @removaldog. You failed my challenge. I knew you couldn’t say something positive about Ebay…….

      I rest my case.

  • 9 months ago

    While everyone on here is busily bickerring about how terrible ebay have become with fee gouging, seller support and the likes etc, etc, etc…., just remember that it is WE the SELLERS that have the upper hand. WE are the ones who have the complete power to move our business elsewhere if unhappy or are paying too much in fees, or having our accounts suspended for having a buyer coming over to try on a pair of shoes/garment before purchase without buying first- they call that outsider trading.
    I personally have started to move my items over to ””. Yes the sales are a tad slower but if we all pack up and move on to a nicer + honest climate/environment then WE would all be better off. Besides, I personally think that this is the demise and slow death to ebay- they’ve gotten way too cocky + greedy and will pay for that dearly!

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      @ The Bonsai Lady………well, we are bickering on here but we are not all saying that ebay are terrible. Thats kind of the point. some say good, some say bad. Usually the people that say bad are the sellers who’s turnover is dropping. They tend to blame ebay for that.

      I tried ebid a few months ago……..still waiting for a sale so i wish you good luck for that one……….

      Regarding your items not as described….you get that anywhere – its not exclusive to ebay and from my experience they do offer protection from that sort of thing.

  • 9 months ago

    Oh, and just check out all of the terrible negative ebay reviews online-there are squillions of them mostly from disgruntled sellers who are now being ripped off by those dodgy buyers who endlessly take out action with ebay/paypal to get a refund. I too have been ripped off several times. I sell gr8 quality clothing and lately have had a lot complain that I sent them an old rag that I wiped my ass with, pretty crappy but they are now rife on ebay. So I am out of there…….For good………..

  • Ross K
    9 months ago

    @ removaldog , i have to agree with Alan Patterson. You rant about how you hate ebay then claim you love it. I have been reading this thread with a lot of humour and interest. Your posts are contradictory. I did see you attack him on another thread when you accused him of being an ebay moderator just because you didn’t agree with his opinion. You say that it has never crossed your mind that he works for ebay. Well, that’s just a complete lie cos in another post you done exactly that . I think that is what Patterson has picked up on. You are inconsistent.

  • 9 months ago

    @The Bonsai Lady
    @alan paterson
    @Ross K, it’s good to have options, so many thanks to The Bonsai Lady.

    Alan only seems to understands what alan want’s to understand…TRUly alan is a dick, but TBF he’s an amusing dick, and certainly not somebody I’d take seriously. If Ross k feels the need to agree with alan, well…it’s a free country.

    Alan seems unable (or unwilling, as does Ross k) to accept that…

    I (me personally) love the way eBay is laid out, the way it (the web site) functions, and the way we are able to search for what we want, and are able to enter our own requirements, our “filters”. Is THAT positive enough or “NICE” enough for you alan?.

    I HATE to way it’s RUN…the dishonest way it’s run, and how we as BOTH seller & buyer alike are screwed over by eBay, as and when it suits them.

    ROSS K, perhaps you would be good enough to highlight my “rant”? cut n paste it if you can manage it. Oh and BTW I recall I made a comment about alan SOUNDING like an eBay moderator, with a comment he made about “going off topic”? I may have even made a joke of it, but to call me a liar?. Well, we are all entitled to our opinions, and my opinion is that alan is a dick, and that perhaps you’re no better.

    • alan paterson
      9 months ago

      @ removaldog – you are right on one thing. if I read your posts, digested them and then applied them to my business I would certainly go out of business. so yes, a positive slant is required. Its as much about attitude to succeed as the your business plan – maybe more so. With your attitude…..if I digested your posts and applied…..I would not succeed.

      I think it funny you challenge Ross for calling your post a “rant”. You yourself referred to it as a “rant”. He was quoting you! HA HA! You really are off ur rocker. You can’t remember what you are writing from one rant to the next lol.

  • The Bonsai Lady
    9 months ago

    Well Mr Alan, I have been on ‘’ for just under a week and made my first sale yesterday! Joy! Anyhow, what were you selling when on ebid? Any business takes time to build and a heap of people I know have exported all of their goods over to ebid and have had no complaints. I truly believe they will be as big as ebay and are the best alternative out there in cyberland- so give em a go peoples and good luck too!

    • Northumbrian
      9 months ago

      We believe in Santa, and often ride on the hogworts express

    • 9 months ago

      ebid was founded just a few years after ebay. It’s nearly 20 years old.

      While it does indeed take time to build a business, when do you believe they might catch up to ebay?

      A lot of us have tried ebid and found it a waste of time. Having just had a quick search on it this morning, nothing seems to have changed since I last looked. They just don’t have the content compared with ebay. Try searching with a keyword and see how many results you get on ebid and ebay. I’ve done that this morning with some of our core products, all good sellers on ebay. For one item keyword, it was 35 matches on ebid compared with 30000+ on ebay. For another, 5 matches on ebid and 1000+ on ebay.

      There are a few very niche sellers who can do OK on ebid, but if you’re selling mainstream products, the extreme lack of choice on ebid compared with ebay means buyers won’t be going there for those products any time soon and therefore, sellers won’t be trying it again either.

  • northumbrian
    9 months ago

    anything ebay is bad
    and anything not ebay is good,
    is simply nonsense

  • alan paterson
    9 months ago

    The Bonsai Lady, the context of your message makes it sound as you are doing this for some extra cash. Nothing wrong with that. But I am doing this as a livelihood – I have bits to pay, business bills – staff, rent, utilities. I need to sell over £10,000 per week just to pay the bills (isn’t it exciting !) . I need a bit more “results” than what you are describing. I know if I spent by time on Ebay doing more listings and “tweaking” – I know I would get those results. We need to spend our time sensibly on the platform that is giving the best return. That platform is Ebay.

    You maybe missed my previous post when I said I had already listed items on ebid and I am yet to make any sales. There is no evidence that ebid is catching nor will ever catch Ebay.

    • 9 months ago

      @alan paterson AKA Dick, comments to @The Bonsai Lady

      “The Bonsai Lady, the context of your message makes it sound as you are doing this for some extra cash. Nothing wrong with that. But I am doing this as a livelihood – I have bits to pay, business bills – staff, rent, utilities. I need to sell over £10,000 per week just to pay the bills (isn’t it exciting !) . I need a bit more “results” than what you are describing. I know if I spent by time on Ebay doing more listings and “tweaking” – I know I would get those results. We need to spend our time sensibly on the platform that is giving the best return. That platform is Ebay.”

      “That platform is eBay”, dick?, for you perhaps, but not for everyone, and just think what you could be making if you WERE to “spend your valuable time more sensibly”, eh.

      You went on and on and on to say
      “You maybe missed my previous post”

      Oops, missed your pearls of wisdom ?, surely not.

      “when I said I had already listed items on ebid and I am yet to make any sales. There is no evidence that ebid is catching nor will ever catch Ebay.”

      Oh well dick, so long as you’re happy, eh.

  • 9 months ago

    @alan paterson
    I don’t think Ross k needs you to defend him, BTW did I CALL you a Mod?, not that I care…just mildly curious.

    Challenge him (Ross)?, christ you’re boring.

  • Mac
    9 months ago

    If ebay is so bad then those sellers will be switching to other platforms? How about those who dislike Amazon moving to ebay and those who dislike Ebay moving to Amazon?

    Pretty much every site I have looked at for 3rd party selling has people moaning. If everything written about them was taken at face value then every site is bad for sellers and every site causes problems.
    The reality can be different for other sellers.

    • Dave
      9 months ago

      Yes! Shopify 🙂 Sales are growing, now double our eBay sales 6 months after launch. Fees are 1/3rd and hassle is 95% less.

      We’re now switching eBay over to just clear older stock.

    • 9 months ago

      Good CS is (I sincerely believe) a major consideration from both a seller/buyer point of view, and eBay simply do not have any. How a problem is handled (if it is handled) can all too often determine whether or not you’ll get any repeat business, and BTW I speak as a buyer 99% of the time, so eBay CS should/would be my best friend… if I were a dishonest person.

      I’ve purchased from Amazon many times, and to the most part it’s been trouble free, but not always, well…nobody’s perfect, yet when I’ve found the need to contact Amazon CS I’ve found them to be A1, 99.9% of the time.

      Contact eBay CS, and you can pretty much guarantee (as a seller) getting screwed, twice. Once by the buyer, and a second time via eBay’s LACK of CS. Fortunately the vast majority of transactions are not only trouble free, but sometimes even fun (as I’ve found) as it is only a small percentage of eBayers (buyers & sellers) who screw it up for the rest of us.

  • lotus nut
    9 months ago

    And now uk account keeps getting diverted to the US .com site with message “Something went wrong. We’re sorry”

    Yet another glitch! – seems like they know its problem from downdetector reports

    • Dave
      9 months ago

      Yep, its been suspect for most of the morning.