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Royal Mail Price Changes for April 2013

By Chris Dawson March 1, 2013 - 2:00 pm

Royal Mail have today announced their price changes for both consumers and businesses which come into effect ont the 2nd April. There’s a lot to take in but the headlines are:

Prices and services are changing

You will need to check the rates that will apply to you. Whilst Royal Mail have tried to simplify services with Guaranteed, Tracked and Standard tariffs the reality is a lot of confusion as people try to figure out which tariff is the best one for them.

Compensation

Maximum compensation for First Class or Second Class Signed For items increases from £46 to £50. Compensation for loss or damage of untracked products will be reduced from £46 to £20.

2.5% fuel surcharge for businesses

This applies to Special Delivery Guaranteed and Royal Mail Tracked 24 and 48. Fuel surcharges will not apply to non-contract business and consumer parcel services.

Parcelforce

Whilst in recent years Parcelforce have been a separate business, it would appear they’ve been more closely aligned with Royal Mail and for heavier items Royal Mail intend to push consumers to use Parcelforce services.

Existing business contracts honoured

Royal Mail will honour business customers’ fixed price contracts on Royal Mail Special Delivery and Royal Mail Tracked 24 and 48, for the duration of their contract term, excluding any extensions agreed to the term after 1st March 2013.

Consumer Pricing

Consumer pricing is available as a pdf document and will also apply to postage purchased through eBay Postage. Whilst the price of a 1st class stamp hasn’t changed, most other pricing has.

Consumer 1st and 2nd Class Parcel Prices

Royal Mail Consumer Parcel Prices 2012 2013

Parcels Sizes

Small parcels can measure up to: Length: 45cm Width: 35cm Depth: 8cm Weight limit: 2kg

Medium parcels can measure up to: Length: 61cm Width: 46cm Depth: 46cm Weight limit: 20kg

Large parcels can measure up to: 1.5m length and 3m length and girth combined Weight limit: 30kg Only available on Parcelforce Worldwide services

Exceptions are cubes up to 16x16x16cm and tubes less than 45cm long and 8cm in diameter will also be priced as small parcels.

Roll or cylinder shaped parcels larger than these sizes can be posted as Medium Parcels up to and including 90cm in length and up to and including 104cm (length plus twice the diameter)

1, 2, 3

Whilst Royal Mail launched their 1, 2, 3 website advertising Guarenteed, Tracked and Standard parcels, for consumers the options are Guaranteed, Confirmed (Recorded Delivery) and Standard.

Business (Account) Pricing

Royal Mail Business Contract pricing is available as a pdf document, along with separate documents for Airmail, Airsure and International Signed For.

Pricing for Royal Mail 1st and 2nd Class Account Customers

For 1st and 2nd class options are Letter, Large Letter(4 weight bands), Small Parcel (2 weight bands), Medium Parcel (5 weight bands). There are no discounts for volume or pre-sorting and the services are VAT exempt.
Contract 1st 2nd Class Post

It’s worth noting that I don’t currently see any options to purchase Recorded Delivery Signed For on 1st or 2nd class mail for business customers. I may be wrong, but it would appear this service may only be available for consumers as of April 2013.

Pricing for Royal Mail 24 and 48 Account Customers

Business pricing is changing with just two parcel tariffs for Royal Mail 24 and 48 (Large Letter and Parcel). There’s a limit of 20kg for Royal Mail 24 and 2kg for Royal Mail 48, this will push more parcels onto the 24 hour service.

There is a requirement to send send more than 1,000 parcels and or large letters per year to access these services on account. This is a reduction in required volumes, which will make the service available for more lower volume sellers from April.
Royal Mail Tracked 24 and Tracked 48

International Parcels

Pricing for Airmail, Airsure and International Signed for have also changed. Royal Mail are increasing Business Airmail prices in line with inflation and reducing the number of weight bands for items over 100g from 22 down to 9.

eBay comment

James Miles, Manager, Strategic Shipping Partnerships has been looking through the price changes and said “Keeping consumer letter prices unchanged is good news, although private sellers will need to watch the size of their parcels carefully with the 8cm limit on small parcels.

For business sellers the simplification of services is very much welcomed along with the reduction in the threshold for eligibility. Many Business sellers should now find themselves eligible for a Royal Mail contract and therefore be able to mitigate any impact on their postage costs.

These changes are an important reminder that getting the right portfolio of services to serve your customers is vital, with research showing that over 4 in 10 shoppers have abandoned a purchase due to the delivery date not matching their expectations. We encourage sellers to continue to shop around for the best service for them and their customers, particularly for larger/heavier items and we’ll be playing our part by offering services from a range of couriers, some offering large discounts, in our Label Printing service.”

Alternatives

We’ve had a quick look at the alternatives where Royal Mail is likely to be uncompetitively priced.

eBay Postage Options

If you want to use eBay Postage then Parcelforce and Collect Plus offer a range of 24 hour, 48 hour and 3-5 day deliveries:

ParcelForce 24 – £13.19 inc. VAT flat up to 20kg – (up to 58% off 2013 PF prices)
ParcelForce 48 – £11.99 inc. VAT flat up to 20kg – (up to 56% off 2013 PF prices)
It’s worth noting that Parcelforce prices have not increased only if purchased through eBay

Collect+ (3-5 day tracked service) – from £3.99 inc. VAT

Non – eBay Options

My mobile and inbox have been filling up today with online sellers asking about the price changes. Options like myHermes start at £3.00 and with their Parcelshop drop off offer a 3 day service. Others have been comparing the new Royal Mail rates with courier contract rates which with the right volumes are starting to look very attractive for any parcels around 2kg or more.

We’d love to hear your thoughts on how the price changes will affect your business. Will you be using Royal Mail more, less or about the same. What will be the biggest price change to affect your business, or are you one of those for whom the price changes will benefit?

  • Clarky
    4 years ago

    They still have the daft thing that a small parcel under 170g is cheaper to post to Europe than next door…

  • 4 years ago

    Oh Dear.
    RE RECORDED DELIVERY.

    I have just spoke to the nice man at the RM Business centre and he has told me recorded will NOT be available to business customers on contract.
    Only frankers and consumers will be able to use recorded.

    He said that Rm are pushing businesses to Tracked service.

    Good luck everyone.

    • Jimbo
      4 years ago

      I think you may have been misinformed. Have a look here
      http://www.royalmail.com/termschanges

    • 4 years ago

      Thanks Jimbo.
      Arggg. Bloody Royal Mail.

      Why the hell can’t they inform their staff properly.

    • sarah
      4 years ago

      They can’t inform us Post Office staff as Post Office and Royal Mail are not part of the same company any longer we get fined for not following what they say.
      The hazardas good act that was rolled out for international mail will be for UK mail next

    • 4 years ago

      Just spoken to someone else at RM business centre. They say they are getting lots of calls on whether it IS continuing or NOT. BUT wait for it….
      They tell me they don’t know as there is not a price for “Royal Mail Signed For™ (formerly named Royal Mail Recorded Signed For)”
      Their manager has had to try and find out and probably won’t hear until next week.

      What a shambles.

    • Chris
      4 years ago

      Simon, if you find anything out, I’d be grateful if you could post it here.

      Cheers

    • 4 years ago

      Will do Chris, but it sounds like Royal Mail don’t have a clue either and that’s what is more worrying.
      What a PIA.

    • 4 years ago

      Just got the response from Royal Mail.
      (Yes I was surprised too) B-)
      I wouldn’t take it as gospel as anything is possible and of course no one seems to know the price for adding Recorded Delivery.
      ===========
      Good Morning,

      I received an email yesterday confirming that you can still add the recorded/signed for service to the new packetpost service. (Royal Mail Standard 24 & 48 ) and also the STL code.

      I hope this has answered your query.

      Kind Regards

      Gemma Lee

      Royal Mail Customer Experience

      Royal Mail Group Ltd

      Dearne House, Cortonwood Drive, Brampton. Barnsley. S73 0UF

      ( – Royal Mail Finance 08457 950950

      šl – gemma.l.lee@royalmail.com
      ==============

    • 4 years ago

      Just emailed the lady at Royal Mail re the ADDITIONAL price for recorded contract and this was the response.
      =========
      Hiya,

      I’ve been told that the price will be £1.10 per item.

      Kind Regards

      Gemma Lee

      Royal Mail Customer Experience

      Royal Mail Group Ltd

      Dearne House, Cortonwood Drive, Brampton. Barnsley. S73 0UF

      ( – Royal Mail Finance 08457 950950

      šl – gemma.l.lee@royalmail.com
      ==========

    • Toby
      4 years ago

      Consumer price for signed for option is £1.10 [up 15p]

      If they offer RM24 ‘with Signature’ it would be worthwhile, as we don’t send more than 5000 parcels to qualify for a full tracked contract

    • TheShopkeeper
      4 years ago

      From April you only need to send a combined 1000 packages to access both Tracked 24 and 48.

      http://www.royalmail123.com/tracked_contract.html

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    Do Royal Mail expect to get any business where packages are over 1kg or even if the packages are medium size any weight?

    They are unlikely to get mine.

    Anything over 80mm deep and you are doomed if you list on ebay and you rely on Royal Mail!

    The UK competiters are today rubbing their hands.

    And as for the airmail banding and prices if you are just over the band limit that is a big hike in price so from here on in it is extremely important to get the shipment weight right when calculating shipping costs for ebay sales else you will loose out big time.

  • 4 years ago

    This is easy to understand Chris. It is nice to see royail mail tap into increasing courier market. They must have done their homework to introduce changes in the pricing with small & medium parcels.

    It’s always helpful when Tamebay explains the changes.

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    The account customer royal mail tracked prices actually don’t look too bad relative to the competition and if the limit has been reduced to 1000 parcels and/or large letters per year then this may be an option. The issue for me is that a high proportion of my gear goes overseas and is this included in the 1000 or not?

    • 4 years ago

      Overseas is not included – you need 1000 parcels/year Royal Mail 24 or 48 (but at least it’s in any format so you can mix tracked and standard to qualify).

    • Darryl
      4 years ago

      Gary, The prices above are for the replacement to 1st and 2nd class packets on a packet post daily rate. Don’t confuse them with the Tracked prices, which are much higher than the price above.

    • Nitbuntu
      4 years ago

      This post needs to be amended as it can easily mislead. ‘Royal Mail 24’ has nothing to do with ‘Royal Mail Tracked24’.

    • Steve
      4 years ago

      You’ll need 1000 RM UK AND 1000 Overseas airmail to qualify

    • Toby
      4 years ago

      ‘You’ll need 1000 RM UK AND 1000 Overseas airmail to qualify’ for standard,
      5000+ parcels to qualify for tracked contract

  • 4 years ago

    I use PacketPost and I just spoke to Royal Mail to find out what was happening, the chap had no idea, told me I would be written to, but said very little was changing – “just branding”. Could be in for a bumpy ride!

  • Darryl
    4 years ago

    The prices you’ve listed for Tracked 24 and Tracked 48 above are not the prices for the Tracked service. They’re the replacements for 1st class packets and 2nd class packets respectively for account customers on Packet post daily rate. Tracked is something like £4.50 +vat and you have to buy a thermal printer from RM @ £200. So it’s more cost effective for us to use out courier than Royal Mail.

  • BRYAN
    4 years ago

    Selling low value items on ebay just will not be viable. Even with the current £2.70 postage charge for anything over 25mm my postage charges are often close to or more than the item price.By increasing it to £3 and restricting size to 8cms thick will make matters even worse.Rural and small town Post Offices will be closing in their hundreds through loss of Ebay business which keeps them going at present.

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    The good news is the price rises are not as earth shatteringly steep as in 2012 but if you do a lot of medium sized parcels there may be price concerns.

    If the prices shown above for tracked 24 and 48 are incorrect and they don’t include overseas in the 1000 then the account customer royal mail tracked service won’t be of any interest unless I decide to put a bit more effort in (which I am not going to!)

  • Joger
    4 years ago

    Do we just work out the average weight For 24/48 service, just like packet post?

    • Darryl
      4 years ago

      Joger,
      Yes it’s exactly the same and the same CRL code, you just need to replace your PPI and use 24 for 1st and 48 for 2nd

    • 4 years ago

      Ah…that makes sense…great stuff!

  • 4 years ago

    What with making it illegal to post out certain types of batteries and other similar products ,and with postal costs going up , will we see customers going back to local shops as more online businesses wonder whether the low margins are worth the effort.

  • 4 years ago

    Thanks to Chris for explaining the changes, You did a much better job that RM did! Even the Royal Mail staff I spoke to this morning were confused.

    When I first looked at the new rates & terms this morning I incorrectly thought that we would have to send all our postal tubes out as medium parcels. That would have been “game over” for my business. I do feel for those that do not send out enough parcels to qualify for an account though.

    On our business account we are looking at a 10% increase on last year. Up from £1.63 to £1.80 (net of VAT, excluding fuel surcharge). I would not mind so much if the service had improved but if anything it has got worse since last years massive increases.

  • 4 years ago

    Give me a shout here at Codestorm Fulfilment. We have secured rates for the next 12 months and we can do your fulfilment. Always happy to talk/advise anyone on their options.

  • elvis
    4 years ago

    Another day, where Royal Mail have pushed me deeper into depression!

    OBA 2nd class large letter upto 100g has an 18% increase from 50p to 58p.

    Then there’s the 2.5% fuel surcharge. So 60p will be the new total. 20% increase in total then. Last year it rose by 30%.

  • Darren
    4 years ago

    The way we understand it is Daily Packet Rate (1st Class) is changing its name to Royal Mail 24 (Not to be confused with Royal Mail Tracked 24) and where last years price increase introduced a 750g minimum charge for packets at £2.19 and the next band being £2.56 for 1000g the new minimum charge for packets will 1000g at £2.39

    So anything less than 750g will cost a little more and anything 750g->1000g will be a little cheaper.

    All other weight charges above 1000g remain unchanged.

  • elvis
    4 years ago

    Ummm, what’s the difference between “1st and 2nd Class Account Customers” and “24 and 48 Account Customers”.

    Why is a 2nd class large letter for “1st and 2nd Class Account Customers” 58p, yet it is 56p for “24 and 48 Account Customers”.

    What is the difference between these accounts? I currently have an OBA packetpost account so which one am I?

    • Nick
      4 years ago

      Hi Elvis

      That is exactly how I got in a tizz this morning.

      This is our current situation. We send 1st & 2nd class packets (postal tubes mainly) at an average weight of 270g they will change to RM 24 & RM 48 Parcels.

      To qualify for a discounted business account you now only have to send 1000 per annum. If you are sending over this amount you will be able to use the RM 48 service which is 2p cheaper for the item you mention but as you know there is a fuel surcharge to add to that. Confused yet, I am ;-)

    • 4 years ago

      Royal Mail have kept a non-VAT non-discounted rate available. If you can’t reclaim VAT it’s probably a better option than Royal Mail 24 or 48. If you ship less than 1000 parcels per year this is probably the option for you (e.g. if you ship the majority of your items on Royal Mail Tracked, and just the odd 1st/2nd class item).

      If you ship over 1000 items per year then Royal Mail 24 or 48 might be a better option. You’ll pay VAT and reclaim it if you’re VAT registered. Also (I may be wrong) there doesn’t appear to be a small parcel/medium parcel distinction so you may find the pricing more attractive for larger items.

  • Chris
    4 years ago

    Any more info on Recorded Signed For?
    We currently use BPL Code as not VAT Reg’d.

    Good website, nice information info.

    • Jimbo
      4 years ago

      “From 2nd April when purchasing Royal Mail Signed For™ with 1st Class or 2nd Class Account (VAT exempt) a new product code (BPR) should be used.”

      From http://www.royalmail.com/termschanges

    • 4 years ago

      Looks like you can use it on 1st or 2nd Class account post, but not on Royal Mail 24 or Royal Mail 48 then?

    • Chris
      4 years ago

      Hi Jimbo,
      Thanks for that.
      So for my current BPL code with Online Business Account (OBA)
      Its pretty much the same?

    • Jimbo
      4 years ago

      As I understand it, yes.

    • Shelley
      4 years ago

      I hope so too…waiting for more info like you!

  • puddleglum
    4 years ago

    what is very obvious ,is that Royal mail have spent lots of money on web sites and leaflets etc etc etc and no one has a clue! what is really happening ,and the implementation is only a month away,
    every one is confused to what we should be doing ,and how they should be doing it , Royal mail more so than anyone, its a total joke, they must be costing theirself millions ,running around in circles

    • 4 years ago

      Sadly I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Changes probably aren’t as bad as people think at first glance, but if they can’t easily figure out what they should be using that’s less than desirable to say the least considering it was supposed to be as simple as “1, 2, 3” simple options

  • 4 years ago

    Why would a business come up with so many changes at once to make things dificult for its customers. All this changes could be applied trough time slowly one step at a time. Now i i am confused as hell. Not sure which Prices i need to follow and there is no clear guidance. Looks like we will all find out with trial and error:(

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    Anyone noticed that if a package weighs in at 2.1kg the minimum RM price is now £12.92. That is going to kill off a lot of ebay sellers and could spell doom for many ebay catagories.

    And what about the combined shipping thing. It is actually going to be more expensive in future to combine shipping for many items!

    • 4 years ago

      If you use Royal Mail 24 it could be as little as £5.31 based on shipping 1000 items per year all weighing 2.1kg.

      Royal Mail Tracked would also give a better price than £12.92, but Royal Mail obviously didn’t figure out how to put Traced price estimates into the document.

      I’m sure they have other ways to ship 2.1kg items at a reasonable price (PPI and Packet Post maybe?) but darned if I can figure out how to get the pricing.

      My big question is can you add tracking (Recorded Signed For) to Royal Mail 24 – I suspect you can’t… in which case it’s back to rack rate or Tracked in which case prices will rise to over a tenner!

    • Jimbo
      4 years ago

      “My big question is can you add tracking (Recorded Signed For) to Royal Mail 24 – I suspect you can’t…”.

      I think “When purchasing Royal Mail Signed For™ with other account products, you should continue to access Royal Mail Signed For™, through the additional enhancements available.” implies that you can

    • 4 years ago

      I do hope that you’re right :-)
      I do wish that Royal Mail had spelled it out clearly, concisely and in one place :-(

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    What is the penalty if you under achieve on the royal mail 24/48 1000 package target?

    For many who are borderline it may pay to ditch overseas sales and focus on UK only if this is what is needed to exceed 1000 packages.

    But then if you need recorded to satisfy seller protection it falls down again.

    • Nick
      4 years ago

      Hi Gary

      From memory I don’t think there is a penalty as such.

      When we signed up years back the limit was higher & I had the same thought. Back then they said they would just take us off the discounted tariff after 12 months. So with nothing to lose …

      Things may have changed but it’s worth asking RM if you can get someone that actually knows what the rules are.

  • Shelley
    4 years ago

    This is a real nightmare…have RM OBA not VAT regd so use the BPL code,sell on e bay and send some fragile items in small boxes ( appx 21 x10 x 10cms )(cost 2.05 2nd and 2.50 1st,do use recorded sometimes for clothng etc..i do send over 1000 parcels/large letters per yr..this stupid 8cms rule..really fed up now:(

    • Nick
      4 years ago

      HI Shelley

      The 8cm rule makes no sense to me at all.

      Volumes of a cuboid are height x width x length

      Your parcel 21cm x 10cm x 10cm = volume 2100 cm3

      RM Small Parcel 35cm x 45cm x 8cm = volume 12600 cm3

      This from Royal Mail information…
      The following items are also priced as Small Parcels:
      Length: 16cm and Width: 16cm and Depth: 16cm

      That volumes at 4096 cm3

  • 4 years ago

    Thanks for the concise interpretation of the new rates. You have however missed some small print which may prove crucial. I am referring to the note on the business RM24 and RM48 prices. The note says

    “Prices in this table exclude VAT, which is charged at the standard rate, add-ons, additional fees and surcharges where applicable.
    These prices may be reviewed for individual customers to take into account average item size, collection location and destination distribution”

    So on the one hand they are not distinguishing between “small” and “medium” parcels, but I bet that they will use this and say that your “mix” of parcels is 90% medium (say) and hike your individual price up.

    • nick
      4 years ago

      I also noticed that Richard. It is worrying. I note the word “may”.

      They might just be covering themselves. Lets hope so.

  • Phil
    4 years ago

    Hi
    Please can someone help. I am confused lol

    If posting 900mm tubes in the UK will they be classed as small parcels or medium parcels.

    I had assumed small parcels from something I read but can’t find where I read it, but have just read on another forum that they will be classed as medium and will cost £5.65 for up to 1kg – that would kill me off lol. £3 for small parcels without signature would be OK, but not £5.65!!!

    I don’t have an account with RM yet either, not sure how to go about getting one as I am just starting and volumes are lowish. Does having an account mean much discount on pricing?

    Cheers in advance for any help
    Phil

    • Weeze
      4 years ago

      Bloody hell this is mind bending. Most of my stuff is medium sized, this is going to kill me!!! Any ideas on alternatives? Couriers etc?

    • nick
      4 years ago

      They will be medium parcels Phil.

      “Roll or cylinder shaped parcels larger than these sizes can be posted as Medium Parcels up to and including 90cm in length and up to and including 104cm (length plus twice the diameter)”

      You need to send 1000 per annum to use RM 24 or 48. Then they will just go as a parcel. No “small or medium” nonsense as far as I can workout.

      Good luck.

  • Martin
    4 years ago

    I won’t repost all the info here but I’ve done a fair bit of analysis of contract changes (or not) and put it on UKBusiness Forum here:
    http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=2202772&postcount=62

    Contract customers aren’t getting creamed but as noted above, volumetric pricing do look to be coming in by stealth. I would hope it’ll be “sensible” or even “fair” but I guess we’ll see soon enough.

  • Phil
    4 years ago

    Thanks Nick

    So if I am sending 1000 per annum I can use RM 24 or 48 – if you don’t mind me asking what would a 890mm tube cost for say RM24/RM48 as a ‘parcel’ rather than a small or medium parcel :)

    I have only just really started out but will easily do 1000 items per annum – if I speak to them about an account how do I prove the volumes, do you know what I do to get the cheaper prices?

    Thanks a lot for your time Nick, I really appreciate it

    Phil

    • Linzi
      4 years ago

      Phil
      I haven’t got my head around the new prices yet myself – but according to the chart above that Chris posted they would be £2.38 for RM24 or £1.80 for RM48 – both are exclusive of VAT

      What I did want to tell you is that when I first opened my royal mail account – about 8 years ago now, I was nowhere near the minimums they required at the time. Whihc I have a vague recollection at the time was £5k – or at the prices back in 2004 was about 5000 parcels!

      From by own experience and many other similar tales on the powerseller board they basically give you a year to get up to speed and if you’re not doing enough you will lose the right to the better pricing codes. I don’t know anyone this has actually happened to!
      In fact I’ve never been below, even that first year – because, strangely, when you don’t have to stand in the PO queue for hours you have time to actually deal with listings, selling and customers :)

    • Phil
      4 years ago

      Thanks for that Linzi

      Since my last post I have been looking at RM website and see the page for applying for an account with the calculator etc on

      I didn’t realise having an account would make it so much cheaper!!! A year to get up to speed sounds good enough for me lol

      It’s on the to-do list now – something else to do next week :)

      Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it

      Phil

  • 4 years ago

    Just wondering if anyone knows if the 1000 lines per service for Tracked and Standard can be combined. We should hit the Standard easily but we don’t (currently) send 1000 tracked items each year.
    We are looking into stocking some high volume lines if it would help reach the targets if the two products can’t be combined.

  • puddleglum
    4 years ago

    if I were royal mail I would have one of my whizz kids monitor sites such as this , and interact with the customers at the sharp end , or at least take note of the concerns, but they stick their head in the sand , because they think they have customer service???????

    • JD
      4 years ago

      OK so that would be somebody who knows what should be going on. Howsabout someone who knows both about what should be going on and actually is going on?

      Bit of a rare animal in large corporations.

      When you find one make a note of his/her name.

    • puddleglum
      4 years ago

      its this type of attitude that makes it hard to get anything right and things done with such as Royal Mail. just because their big and complicated should not mean that you have to suffer inadequate service

  • 4 years ago

    While change is always a challenge, I do think it’s sensible for RM to push heavy goods towards Parcelforce. The online world would be a better place if all carriers played just to their strengths. James Miles makes a good point when he says “getting the right portfolio of services to serve your customers is vital”, and I would urge everyone to review theirs.

  • puddleglum
    4 years ago

    RM need to look to how they operate a service not just how to charge for it, for example recorded signed for is really not worth a carrot , its neither tracked or treat any different than regular mail , until it reaches point of delivery, in effect its a tax on paranoia. and lack of honesty

  • 4 years ago

    I’ve been saying Royal Mail should have a pink / red on the eBay Powerseller forums. They are by far the largest single company used by eBay sellers and I feel quite strongly they should give us access to one of their (educated and informed) staff members.

    • puddleglum
      4 years ago

      we agree, royalmail and ebay/paypal already hace a relationship withbbuying postage online, a rep on a dedicated board might help things, though that would fly in the face of Royal mails basic ethos of hindering and giving you the run around when a problem arrises

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    Royal Mail state “And we’ll also arrange a free collection if you spend more than £15,000 per annum across all of our services.”

    If you don’t spend £15000 per annum what is the implication?

    Do you have to pay extra for collection or can you drop off at local post office to avoid this?

    • 4 years ago

      We started a collection service recently and although we do over the 15K, RM sent us an invoice and from memory they were around £900. Just checked http://www.royalmail.com/general-correspondence/mailroom-management/collections

      and £750 + VAT for weekdays only.

      Our local sorting office people are great and managed to sort a nice time slot.The area manager didn’t really have a clue, but what do you expect.

      I think there is a service that you can now do a business drop off at a post office.
      They swipe a card and charge your account. Not sure how it all works.

    • Lee Pearce
      4 years ago

      You have to pay for the first year regardless, however if you do over the £15000.00 in the first year you can claim the fee back.

      Royal Mail will not invite you to claim it back but you can.

      If you do not pass the £15000.00 in the 1st year then you pay for collections again.

      Lee

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    Royal Mail say this so answered my own question:-

    “Do I still get a free collection with Royal Mail Tracked 24 and 48?

    Yes, you will receive a free collection if you meet the 1,000 volume entry level for Royal Mail Tracked 24 and 48. For all other services, if you spend £15,000 per annum per site across all Royal Mail products in any combination you will receive a collection free of charge.”

    For the standard 24/48 it seems that you have to pay for collection if you don’t meet the £15k threshold. How much?

    I assume you can still drop off at a post office?

    • Martin
      4 years ago

      The only post you can’t drop at a Post Office are Tracked 24 / 48 sacks/items.

    • 4 years ago

      Hello,
      it’s always worth approaching your local post office to see if they may be able to help out.
      We have used PPI and OBA for about 5 years ish and for around 4 years we dumped our post sack and specials and recorded and parcels at the post office.

      As long as we had the paperwork they were happy to give it to the delivery driver.
      We bought them a tin of roses chocolates every Christmas and they were happy(ish).

      We were entitled to a collection but was easier to drop off at PO then.
      They got NOTHING financially out of it but they were nice and doing me a favour.

      I believe you can also drop off at sorting offices or so my local sorting office tells me. I sometimes drop off there if I am not going to be around at the time of the collection.

  • elvis
    4 years ago

    Right here goes. Hopefully someone can help.

    I am vat registered and I post well over 1000 items. I post roughly 40,000 large letters per year.

    My mail is mainly large letters, half of which are in the upto 100g category and the other half are in the upto 250g category. I currently use large letter 2nd class mail using a CRL code in OBA.

    So to sumarise, I use…

    Large Letter >100g CRL code which is currently 50p.

    and

    Large Letter >250g CRL code which currently 74p.

    Now if I continue to use the CRL code in April for up to 100g, will I be paying the 58p(1st and 2nd Class Account Customers) rate or the 56p rate (24 and 48 Account Customers)?

  • 4 years ago

    Hi,
    So could someone confirm for me, what happens with the current packetpost system? Are the royal mail getting rid of it?

    • Martin
      4 years ago

      Edit:

      Sorry, got terms mixed up. Packetpost is now Royal Mail 24/48 and still exists “for now”.

  • Simon Harrison
    4 years ago

    Went to my local PO thus morning for a few bits (this is also central Manchester’s main Post Office). Spoke to 2 staff members neither if which knew about the changes. No leaflets available. Gonna be interesting…

  • Craig
    4 years ago

    I currently use a franking machine for my post. I send around 3500 items per year with Royal Mail At a rough guess 5% of those are export orders. All UK items are sent 2nd class. 50% of my packages fall into the 2nd class large letter bands. The remaining 45% are in the upto 750grm packet rate. Luckily I will be able to keep most of those under the 80mm thickness so not as bad as it could have been.
    Anything over 1kg I send with collect+
    I spend around £650 per month on the franking machine. I drop the post at my local post office daily rather than have the collections.
    On this basis is this most likely the best deal I can get or do I need to be talking to RM about other possible options.
    Thank you
    Craig

  • Gerry007
    4 years ago

    .
    Collect+ and Hermes,
    Will be rubbing their Hands in glee with the increase in business they will be getting.

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    If you use the standard 24/48 service and drop off at the post office can you queue up and pay the extra for an orange recorded stamp on selected packages?

    Don’t see why this can’t be done.

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    Reading the service guidelines this paragraph below on page 18 makes the drop off/collection thing and 1000 minimum very unclear. It seems that the minimum has been reduced to 1000 packages but if you don’t spend £15000 you have to pay £900 a year for a collection or alternatively drop of at an agreed local mail centre. You cannot drop off at a post office:-

    “Parcels are either collected by us or can be delivered into our agreed local
    Mail Centre or regional Distribution Centre. Parcels cannot be delivered into
    a Delivery Office or Post Office®.”

    • elvis
      4 years ago

      Just more confusion and complexity to Royal Mails “As simple as 1,2,3”.

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    Page 28 of the user guide signed for options are available for RM 24 and 48 services. You just add the sticker:-

    “Signed For™ option – This option is available with Royal Mail 24 and
    Royal Mail 48”

    Link to user guide is here:-

    http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/RoyalMail_ParcelsUserGuide_April2013.pdf

  • elvis
    4 years ago

    “2.5% fuel surcharge for businesses

    This applies to Special Delivery Guaranteed and Royal Mail Tracked 24 and 48.”

    So does the 2.5% surcharge apply to standard Royal Mail 24/48 as well?

    • Martin
      4 years ago

      RM24 & RM48 are also charged fuel surcharge as per:
      http://www.royalmail.com/surcharges

    • elvis
      4 years ago

      Hi Martin, thanks for clarifying that standard 24/48 also has surcharges.

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    If you do 1500 packages a year (for example) it is going to cost 62p per package to have these collected over and beyond the postal tarriff (£930 / 1500) Unless you deliver to a local depot. Not being able to deliver to a post office suddenly makes this 24/48 option far less viable for many (most?) senders of 1000 packages.

    And then you have the premium for signed for delivery for some 24/48 packages which appears to be more than the post office charge over and beyond the standard tariff. So another downside issue to consider when doing the sums.

    • Martin
      4 years ago

      Gary, you are confusing the heck out of yourself and contradicting your own posts turning this thread into a mess of hyperbole & theorising.

      Collection is only required at present for Tracked 24/48 and is free so long as you meet the 1,000 unit minimum. Presumably RM figure you’ll also be shipping non-tracked as well so you’ll be sending more anyway.

      RM24/48 and Special Delivery can still go to the Post Office.

      Presumably there will reach a point when the systems for Special Delivery, Int’ Signed For & Airsure will use the same tech/path as Tracked but for now it’s all seperate.

      Seriously though, you’ve posted multiple times, contradicted yourself, left confusion as to your train of thought by not replying to other comments so it’s hard to know what some of your comments actually refer to or not.

    • Gary
      4 years ago

      Please point to where it says RM 24/48 can go to a post office. I have pointed to where it says it has to go to a depot or be collected.

    • Jimbo
      4 years ago

      Gary, do you have a PPI account?

    • Gary
      4 years ago

      No. Like others I am considering opening a Royal Mail account and using RM 24/48 and only have the new Royal Mail April 2013 fact sheets to go on.

      I am going to ask the post office today if they will be accepting PPI mail bags from April 2013.

    • Martin
      4 years ago

      Gary,

      Please can you show me where is says that Packetpost has changed so that it stops you from taking the sacks to the post office!

      No such notification has been given to anyone that I’m aware of and all the information received so far indicates that RM are only changing contract PacketPost to a new brand name, removing the 750g-1kg weight band and, adding fuel surcharges.

      As I’ve stated already, only RM Tracked 24/48 need to be taken to a collection depot or be collected. Collections for Tracked 24/48 are free although presumably you would still need to cover the 1,000 annual minimum to ensure you didn’t get billed.

      Given that you’re enquiring about an RM account perhaps it’d be a good chance to get that information checked out.

    • Gary
      4 years ago
    • Martin
      4 years ago

      Gary, please look at the section header that page 18 leads from. It is for Tracked 24 / 48 not for all parcels. Without the context I could understand the confusion but the context rules out your interpretation.

      That and there has been no change indicated to Packetpost customers. If it had changed the whole thing would have killed the product for a high percentage of customers.

    • Gary
      4 years ago

      Checked again and done some independent google research and post offices do accept PPI post. No mention of this in the new guidelines and indeed no official Royal Mail guidence on this anywhere. The research does suggest that the arrangement may be voluntary. Post Offices apparently get absolutely no financial benefit from accepting PPI post. I really would like to see some official approval of this practice somewhere or indeed anywhere!

    • Gary
      4 years ago

      Terms of PPI account – “You must not use the PPI on any letters, large letters or packets or other items to be collected, conveyed or delivered by a third party.” – absolutely no mention of delivery to Post Office and absolutely no mention on Post Office website of PPI.

    • Jimbo
      4 years ago

      If you are interested in a PPI account and would like to know if you can drop your post off at your local post office why don’t you ring up Royal Mail and ask?

    • Gary
      4 years ago

      I have rung up Royal Mail and they said that for the PPI 24/48 service you can drop off at a post office. On that basis I am opening a Royal Mail account.

      Got there in the end thank you for the suggestion Jimbo!

    • puddleglam
      4 years ago

      Have fun

    • puddleglum
      4 years ago

      although your post office person may say accepting ppi is voluntary, post masters get a salary from the post office that allows for dealing with this type of business

    • 4 years ago

      You will get different advice and rules from just about everyone you talk to.
      When we first start OBA – PPI we assumed, one set of rules and everyone uses the same. It is not like that.
      The post office we used to drop off at they used to tell us NO BLUE SACKS although we got given them quite regularly . Our sorting office told us it doesn’t matter. We were originally told when setting up PPI that we would need a PPI label and separate sacks for each mail type 1st, 2nd, Int Signed for, Airsure Eu and World. When I started the collections a couple of months ago I asked the RM local area coordinator what needed to go where and he said. Anything signed in 1 box and also Int Signed for and Airsure.
      I said what about 1st class LL recorded and he said in with the 1st class mail as normal.
      Now we have 1 or 2 sacks for 1st class LL that includes recorded and 1st letters and 1st LL. Then anything else in a RM crate. We onlu use a red 1st ppi label on the sacks and no other labels.

      The only thing you now HAVE TO HAVE is the paperwork to give the driver. Whether the Post Office or sorting office or Collections, they all want paper work handed over for scanning.

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    Are EBAY taking all these hidden fees and surcharges into account before they and buyers start being critical of high shipping charges?

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    So for RM 48 customers not VAT registered who do 1500 packages a year you are looking at a total of £2.78 for a parcel weight of up to 1kg all things considered.

    Suddenly the £1.80 does not sound so good does it!

    Only if you do a lot of packages over 80mm thick is it attractive. If you don’t then quite honestly forget it!

    • Gay
      4 years ago

      Where do you get £2.78 from?
      According to the chart RM 48 for under 1kg is £1.80 + VAT + fuel surcharge (2.5%) = £2.21 as opposed to £2.60 small parcel or £5.20 medium from Post Office.

    • Gary
      4 years ago

      If you have to pay for collection then around 60p per package has been allowed for 1500 annual packages. Myhermes collect for 25p per package with no minimum.

    • Gay
      4 years ago

      Oh, I see, well I won’t be having collections, Far too expensive for low volumes. So, RM24/48 prices still look good to me.

    • katakitty
      4 years ago

      I’ve been trying to get to get to the £2.78 figure, now I understand, thank you.

      We’ve just signed up for RM24/48, the guy said we could start immediately but I think we’ll start in the new tax year or I’ll just be like a headless chicken changing to the new system in a few weeks time.

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    Royal Mail need to change their terms so that smaller contract customers posting up to say 2500 packages a year can drop off to a post office to make it viable.

    • puddleglum
      4 years ago

      Royal Mail & the post office are two compleatly different companies

    • Clarky
      4 years ago

      You can drop mail off at a delivery office or sorting office as far as I am aware

    • 4 years ago

      In Urban areas the delivery office or sorting office may not be far away and may not take you far out of your way. But in Rural Areas the chances are that the delivery office or sorting office is in a town maybe many miles away. That can be a confounded nuisance having to go there each day to drop off the mail. The local Village Post Office could be much more convenient.

  • 4 years ago

    Just taken a look at the Royal Mail “Our Services Guide” where it states a size exemption on a small parcel ~ the exemption states that a parcel of 16 cm x 16 cm 16cm can be sent as a small parcel, as can a cylinder of 45 cm x 8 cm.

    A bit of a help, but still Royal Mail has now lost most of my custom because my courier contract with Interlink Express (for UK mainland addresses) is cheaper than Royal Mail for a Medium or Large parcel with a guaranteed next day delivery, and most of my items will fall within the Medium sized parcel category even when taking the 16 cm x 16 cm x 16 cm exemption into account.

    The changes will cause a few more issues with buyers located in the Highlands and Islands of the UK, as these will have to be priced using Royal Mail as they are a lot more expensive if sent by my courier.

    The end result is simple: 50% of my customers will now have to pay at least £2.00 more to receive their item then they did before, and it is my courier company who will benefit the most.

  • Is there any couriers operating in northern ireland that do small parcels ? We use myhermes and collect+ at minute .

  • 4 years ago

    http://royalmail123.com/infocentre_guaranteedppi.html

    PPI Artwork.

    We have use the standard 1st PPI label for around 5 years.
    We print it onto our label and can use for Airsure, Specials and everything else EXCL 2nd class.

    With all these new looking PPI labels as per link above, will we have to use the SD one for specials and the standard 1st for 1st large letters. Will there be another to use for Airsure and Int Signed for.

    ???

    • Martin
      4 years ago

      At the moment RM are only focusing on the UK specific PPI services so there’s currently no mention of PPI changes for Airsure, International Signed For or similar.

      From what I can see the new PPI marks cover:
      – Royal Mail Special Delivery Guaranteed
      – Royal Mail Tracked
      – Royal Mail 24 and 48

      … and can be used from 2nd April (downloadable from 21st March).

      The site indicates they will be required by: 6th July 2013.

  • Aris
    4 years ago

    I wonder how this 16cm cube thing works. Is that something UNDER those dimensions, or does it have to be a cube that size even if whatever else is in the box is fresh air? If so, I can forsee many sales of 16cm3 single-wall boxes!

    What if the dimension of my jiffy bag is under those, but greater than the 8cm small parcel limit. The chap at the post office counter is going to have a right time sorting this out!

    This is going to make ‘free’ (included in the price) shipping so much more difficult – particularly when people order multiple items. Whereas before we could estimate it all on weight, now we have to take into account the total size too. A nightmare!

    • Gary
      4 years ago

      How it works is that you buy a 6″ cube card box and if the item does not fit tough. Squeeze your jiffy bag or bags into it!

    • Martin
      4 years ago

      The exact wording from Royal Mail is as follows:

      Exceptions apply. The following items are also priced as Small Parcels. Parcels that measure up to: Length: 16cm, Width: 16cm, Depth: 16cm.

      So, so long as your packet is under 16cm for ALL dimensions you will be able to treat it as an small parcel.

      You don’t need to send a cube measuring 16x16x16cm…

    • Aris
      4 years ago

      Thanks for confirming this. I can see this being a nightmare at the PO counter. Sadly I don’t send more than 1000 parcels a year to take advantage of the cheaper services – so this is going to make me a bit more uncompetitive.

      If one does use the ‘business services’ how does one post these items? Typically I go to the local sub-postoffice counter. I presume these business services are pre-paid. You print your own postage, then take it where?

      Thanks,

    • Martin
      4 years ago

      You’re best talking to RM business direct although I’d wait a week to allow them to get up to speed and deal with the chaotic mess that’s come about with the changes.

      You may not be ready for RM24/48 (which you can take to the post office) but in terms of streamlining things there seem to be some new approaches coming out that may be useful and/or relevant so worth keeping an eye on things.

      Oh and contract rates are invoiced after, not paid on the day..

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    The era of combined shipping surcharges is upon us. Will ebay be updating their system to permit this?

  • Aris
    4 years ago

    Hmm, our jiffy bags are 200mm wide externally. And the next size down is 170mm. How convenient! I’m sure RM must have worked long and hard to figure out a way to maximise their profits in this new change.

    The items I sell are 450g. So if I sell 1 or two – i’m ok. If I sell three, i’m suddenly in for 3 pounds more in shipping costs. Lovely!

    • puddleglum
      4 years ago

      Eh? Royal mail maximise profits??? lol lol lol,

    • elvis
      4 years ago

      How is selling 2 okay but 3 costs you £3 more? Surely the 3rd one is still 450g so will cost the same as the other 2?

    • JD
      4 years ago

      RM Public Tarriff; Packet:
      Up to 1kg £2.60
      Up to 2kg £5.60

      £3 more

      There are now many instances where eBay combined shipping rules will need to be re-written by sellers.

      I am having a problem with the proposed Overseas Letter Post Scheme 2013 which does not seem to have been mentioned in the prices.
      This was published in the London Gazette last month and requires that every thing International over 5mm thick be sent as a Packet rather than a letter even if it weighs only 50gms.

  • Royal Mail is a joke already,these increases just make it a bigger one. When the lose a parcel they don’t even refund what they charges you to send it in the first place.
    Like ebay they are a monopoly providing a second rate service at first rate prices.The only post service that I know of which is worse is the Italian version who lose parcels so often that they must be based in the Bermuda triangle,some of their deliveries take so long that the parcel has grown whiskers on the journey.

  • puddleglum
    4 years ago

    Strangley enough we just received one of those online survey thingys from royal mail , about the royal mail account team,

    if they take any notice of these surveys there will be a few people looking for a job

  • Gerry007
    4 years ago

    .
    Sadly, when RM made all 0-750gram packets one price last April, I could see a disaster happening.
    I mean, £2.05p OBA 2nd class, for any size up to 750grams was quite silly, now they have realised their mistake & done the opposite & priced themselves practically out of the market.

    This will effect many traders on ebay, with other costs rising simply because of these new rates.

    Take an example, we buy our Padded envelopes on ebay & up to now a box of say 100 envelopes measuring about 45x35x35 cost around £7-9, all in 1st class post.
    From April that same box will fall into the Large Packet category, hence we will see a whopping great price increase in Mailing supply costs.
    TIME TO STOCK UP…

    • Aris
      4 years ago

      Don’t make the mistake I did and stock up on the wrong sized padded envelopes. Stock up on 16x16x16 or smaller single wall boxes. I think the royal mail will be shipping alot of boxes with fresh air in them because getting your stuff to stay within the specified size in a padded envelope may prove to be very difficult. I for one will be moving to boxes.

    • 4 years ago

      I sell Books so the sizes of padded envelopes I buy tend to be the ones relavent to the sizes of the Books. However I will be looking very carefully at the Books that I order except that as I have a large accumulated stock I am rather stuck with a lot of what I am going to sell in the future.

      However a few years ago I used to go out and take a Specialist Book Sales Stand around the Specialist Events. I am looking very seriously at doing that again. After all I could sell as much in a 2 day weekend event as I sell in a month on ebay.

      But I have medical problems that was why I stopped doing the Rallies first time. I have started to chase the Doctors to get my problems sorted. As an example today I was at the Hospital getting a X-Ray done. Hopefully this time they will come up with an answer about my breathing problems. If they do and can sort out the other problems I will be down grading my efforts on ebay to save the massive problems that the Royal Mail is about to cost me.

      After all at the end of the day the Customer has to feel that they are getting a half decent deal. Its no good if the Royal Mail is taking a large proportion of the Sales Receipt and what is left is being taken by ebay and Paypal leaving little or nothing for me.

  • Gemma
    4 years ago

    Interesting development today. We had a meeting scheduled with TNT Post this afternoon to discuss their offering – they came to us so didn’t think it would do any harm to hear what they had to say with all the upcoming Royal Mail changes.

    They phoned half an hour ago to cancel. Apparently they have received their new prices from Royal Mail and are now unable to compete! Something tells me that this is no accident and the system that Royal Mail have come up is deliberately structured to try and force these 3rd party competitors out of the marketplace.

    • Gary
      4 years ago

      Does the new Royal Mail commercial tariff mean that Hermes and others will be increasing their prices?

  • Jason
    4 years ago

    The small to medium limits is quite the jump, that 8cm cut off means my main items will jump from £2.20 to £5.20 postage. Making it no longer worth selling and I won’t be able to send some of the smaller items in one package if the customer orders several.

    • 4 years ago

      Hi Jason
      I thought that too. My boxes are 8.2cm on the shortest length so I felt particularly hard done by.
      But then I read a bit more and deciphered the Royal Mail pdf to find that as I use a Royal Mail OBA account and have packet post rates at the moment, then the SMALL and MEDIUM PARCEL rates do not affect me. My parcels (or packets) are just called PARCELS and I don’t have to worry about the SMALL & MEDIUM size differences.
      So the question is….
      Do you have a Royal Mail Online Business Account?
      And if not, now that the criteria for getting an account is only 1000 parcels / items per year then do you have enough volume to apply for one (was 500 a year)? If so then you should be OK.
      Personally I wish the 5000 limit had stayed because now my competitors, who post less than 5000 items per year can get an account and match my shipping rates.
      Dean

    • Jason
      4 years ago

      Hi Dean,

      Thanks for your reply, the OBA is something I am looking into. I am quite a new seller, at 1000 I should be able to reach this limit.

      Still I do feel it is quite a change and not fair on the small sellers.

      It would be interesting to see Royal Mails earnings on each type of postage.

  • Wheeze
    4 years ago

    Some bright spark has spotted the exception limit at the bottom of the leaflet, there is a parcel exception of 16x16x16cm, there are some dimensions also for tubes. This means that a parcel of around these dimensions or slightly smaller still qualifies. This may help a few people.

  • 4 years ago

    For those wondering about the arbitrary 8cm cut off on small to medium parcels, we suddenly had a brainwave.
    Go measure your nearest standard front door letterbox. Chances are it’s 8cm.
    Some bright spark has worked out the extra cost of handling parcels when they can’t be put through the door if noone is home.
    For us, with an impending annual increase of 45% as a result of these changes (on an annual bill of £10k) it’s finally forced me to address getting a business account and stop spending a couple of hours nattering down at the local post office each week. Shame they’ll lose the business though….

  • 4 years ago

    8cm representing a standard letterbox. That is certainly reasonable. However round here many front doors no longer have letterboxes of any size. Instead about half the properties seem to have those “tin” box Letter Postboxes screwed to the wall. The trouble with them is that they come in a range of sizes from very small ones where it is an effort to put anything larger than a postcard in them right up to quite large ones. And their openings range is size.

  • 4 years ago

    These new rates are going to hit me hard on many items I sell. I sell many items that are more than 8cm deep and more than 16cm long but under 750g which currently cost £2.20 to post second class and now will cost £5.20. The items I sell, customers are never going to pay £5.20 in postage.

  • Hope
    4 years ago

    I sell a lot of items on eBay. A lot of customers are okay with postage but the type of items I send are likely to go up drastically. I have looked elsewhere but either the companies don’t drop items direct to the customers or they have different charges for how far you’re sending, whereas at least I know with Royal Mail I can be sending it 50 miles down the road or the other end of the country and it’ll stay the same, just go up if you’re sending it overseas.

    I expect most customers will just have to take the postage into consideration when bidding, and adjust their maximum bids accordingly. Looks like I’ll be losing a lot of potential profit.

  • Jason
    4 years ago

    I just spoke to RM and they said they are really busy with the business accounts right now with everyone opening new accounts (not suprisingly…), so many people including myself will have to wait a few weeks. It’s a shame they didn’t finalise the requirement earlier to allow people to open accounts earlier with the 1,000 parcel requirement.

    Makes me sad thinking non business individals having to pay £5.20 to send a present.

  • puddleglum
    4 years ago

    shit floats we will be ok

  • Gary
    4 years ago

    Can’t work out why a 2kg small parcel is more than double the price of a 1kg small parcel. The size limit is no different. For a medium parcel the difference is around 50%.

    Could Tamebay please ask RM to comment?

    • puddleglum
      4 years ago

      ? 2kg is twice1kg
      medium or middle=half 50% .???
      only on ebay does something that costs twice as much to ship and is twice as heavy mean a discount

  • 4 years ago
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