40% of British SMEs want to leave the EU
According to research published in the Daily Mail, 40% of British small business owners want to leave the European Union. The research by Close Brothers Finance claims to show increasing unhappiness among many business owners about continuing EU membership. Of the 40% who want to leave, 45% are concerned that struggling EU member states could bring the UK down with them. 39% say our economy would be better off.
Mike Randall of Close Brothers Asset Finance says: ‘When we joined the EEC 40 years ago we thought we were joining a large, prosperous nation but the benefits are being questioned. What is clear is that firms across the UK are seeking stability and reassurance that their best efforts to recover won’t be thwarted by a greater force.’
Of course, this means that 60% of small business owners either would like to stay in the EU or don’t have an opinion. That’s a fairly sizeable majority. The free movement of goods and services among the EU members free from tax and duty was cited as the number one advantage for small businesses in staying a part of the EU.
This is set to be on the political agenda for many years to come. Uncertainty will rule.
Absolute nightmare for attracting inward investment. Not good for jobs.
When we first joined the then Common Market all those years ago I was one of those who campaigned in favour of going in. But the Common Market no longer exists. It is not just a Free Trade area. It is now a Country that is out to destroy the traditional Nation State and take over completely from Domestic Democratically Elected Governments.
Had it still just been a Free Trade Area then I would probably still be campaigning in favour of it. However no longer.
The EU has been on the Political Agenda for at least 2 decades and will stay on the agenda for several more. The euro is going to bring the whole house of cards down. What we have to ask ourselves is Do we want to be brought down at the same time by staying in or do we want a chance of economic survival by being outside.
It has been suggested that if we are Outside then we will not be able to trade with the EU. Yet Norway and Switzerland who are outside quite happily trade with the EU and are considerably more prosperous than those Countries, including the UK, that are in the EU.
Indeed while we trade with the EU they also Trade with the UK. If they put in place obstructions to us trading with them then guess what we will put in place similar barriers to them trading with us. The thing is that we buy more from them than they buy from us. So its in their interests as much as in ours to come to an agreement so that we can continue to trade with them while allowing them to trade with us.
There may be a few disadvantages with being outside the EU. But Norway and Switzerland will probably tell you that there are considerably more advantages. So lets hope that David Cameron will hold a Referendum before the next General Election and the question will have a simple Get Out or Stay In type answer. I will certainly be Voting(and Campaigning) to Get Out.
It currently costs us 40 million euros per day to stay in. that’s a lot of money the government needs for other issues within the UK. Get the hell out I say.
This is typical UKIP based propaganda and should be ignored since we are paying nowhere near £15bn.
The net contribution (after rebates etc) is somewhere under £4bn based on the last figures I can find.
To put that figure in context for the arithmetically challenged amongst you we pay over £30bn on just servicing our national debt interest!
We pay around £190bn for social protection, £119bn on health, £88bn on education, £38bn on defense – I could go on but you get the picture?
In the scheme of things £4bn is a pittance and for that you get access to the largest market in the world.
Whats not to like – it’s a bargain in my opinion!
EU rebates have always been about propping up the unsustainable in the interests of politicians. French farmers come to mind. Didn’t they do well?
If all is good nobody needs a rebate. Let alone a write off (other countries may be inserted).
I am as happy to be in the EU as I am to be part of humanity.
Sod the politicians.
Actually quite a few UK farmers do very nicely thank you out of the CAP.
The UK rebate was a political fix simple as that.
Whilst I am as unimpressed as most with the track record of the political class in the UK they are in a position to make decisions that will materially affect our lives so ignoring them is not really an option.
What makes you think that if we are outside the EU we will not have access to the EU Market? Have you noticed the numbers of Peugeot, Mercedes, BMW, Fiat Vehicles on the roads of Britain. These and much else we buy from other EU Countries. The EU will want to continue to sell these to us if we are outside the EU.
So whatever we decide in any future Referendum we will continue to trade with the EU. It is possible that there could be changes such as more paperwork or tariffs but at the same time we will be losing many EU “Red Tape” Rules and Regulations. We will get our “Self Determination” back again.
If you look at what Cameron has said. He wants the EU to progress and develop. If the EU was willing to change and develop it is possible that many, including me, might start to change our minds.
However if you look back on the UK we have changed over the years. But our changes have often been brought about by Civil Wars or Strife in other ways. The way that the EU is going it is not just us in the UK who are not happy there are Parties like UKIP in just about every EU Country(although perhaps not as prominent as UKIP)
The EU has to stop moving in the wrong direction and move back in the right direction. If that happens then it might develop into a Community that we can all be proud of being a part of. If not then we will be far better on the outside.
Whilst you are quite entitled to your opinions no matter how ill informed I am not required to accept or agree with them.
Your misplaced view that our EU partners will simply rollover and let us access their markets whilst letting us choose to cherry pick which bits of the single market we like is touching but a fantasy.
The cold reality is that we need them more than they need us so when push comes to shove we will have to trade something for continued access and perhaps you and others might not like that price when you get presented with the final EU ‘bill’.
In a Democracy that is your Democratic Right. After all we in the UK have been fighting for our Democratic Rights for Centuries(back to Simon De Montfort perhaps).
There are indications that the German Government is not happy with the way that the EU is going. So if you think that it is the UK against the rest you should stop reading just the Beano and start to look at what is actually happening.
I doubt if the EU will simply Roll-Over. If it did then perhaps it was a sign that they too realised that the EU as currently constituted had gone far too far in the wrong direction. What I expect is that Cameron will argue one way and the rest will argue in a differant way. However that some will agree with Cameron on some items. Some others will agree on others. At the end of the day there will be a compromise. Hopefully the EU will realise that Cameron wants to stay in but wants the EU to be far more sensibly organised than it is at present.
The big question will be Will the compromise that Cameron ends up with be generally acceptable to the British Electorate? If it is then Cameron will get a Stay In Vote at the Referendum(as I think he wants). But if what he gets in unacceptable then he will get a Get Out Vote.
Now to the EU and the Markets. The EU sells us considerably more than we sell them. Therefore it is in their interest for us to continue to trade with them(both ways). Because at the end of the day they do better out of it than we do.
Now let us imagine that they put up substantial barriers against us selling to the EU. Guess what Mercedes, BMW, Peugeot, Fiat etc motorcars will start to become rare on Britains roads. Why because we are not going to allow the EU Free Access to our Market if we are barred from theirs. You might not accept this simple fact but it is realistically what will happen.
You state that we need them more than they need us. I suspect that there are very few Economists or indeed Politicians who would agree with you there. With a significant proportion of EU Countries(Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and indeed France) with significant question marks against their economies Britain with a damaged but still reasonable condition economy is an asset the EU needs very badly. The trouble is that if the Eurozone starts to collapse as many including me thinks that it will the EU will need the UK economy even more.
However to save ourselves being drained by the future Eurozone Collapse we need to be on the outside of the EU. We will still be damaged but to a lesser extent.
However you should rem ember that we still trade with the rest of the World. If the EU bars us from access to their markets(and we bar then from ours) we shall just have to go out and push our products around the rest of the World. Before we got dragged into the EU we used to trade with the Commonwealth. Since we have been in the EU we have tended to ignore the Commonwealth. We made a serious mistake there. But there is no reason why outside of the EU but still able to access their markets(and allowing them to access our markets on similar terms) we should not go out and develop those markets in South Africa, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc that we have so stupidly ignored for several decades.
Nothing wrong with the Beano in my book!
Frankly it generally made a lot more sense than most of your poorly argued suppositions and opinions about the EU and our place in the world.
The naivety you demonstrate is shared by many who have precious little understanding of real politic and the overiding requirement to protect our national and economic interests over the long term whatever it takes.
But hey lets raise the standard again and get old blighty out of the EU and away from all these bureaucrats and go play with the Commonwealth again.
At least the banannas might be cheaper!
How about South America and leading a trade mission to Argentina perhaps?
Get real – whatever happens we have to stay a part of whatever the EU morphs into next whether we like it or not.
The only issue is the terms of the deal and how it can be presented to the UK people – simple as that.
Remember the old saying – ‘be careful what you wish for, lest it come true’.
I agree with you. I only mentioned the Commonwealth as an example. South America, indeed North America(USA and Mexico-Canada was covered in the Commonwealth), China, Russia. We should be developing our trade with all of them
You mentioned Argentina. Years ago UK trade with Argentina was massive. The UK invested enormous sums in Argentina. Lets not forget that the Argentinian Railways were all financed and built from the UK as were many other developments in Argentina.
So while the Falklands is a problem at present there is no reason why at sometime in the future our relationship with Argentina might allow a more normal trade relationship with that Country.
I do not believe that the UK is some small insignificant island off the coast of Europe that has to bow down to Brussels every day. I believe that the UK people have the ability to go out and trade with the World as their ancestors did years ago.
Its the appalling standards of Politician that we have had in the UK since the Second World War(and many before the First World War were not much better). The real Greats in the UK Political system were during the Victorian Era and up to and including the First World War then it all went to pot after the First World War.
Again you probably do not believe me or agree with me but in a Democracy that is your right. However I would rate a Gladstone or Campbell-Bannerman, or an Asquith or a Lloyd George head and shoulders above any of the present bunch and way ahead of almost everybody from 1918 onwards.
Firstly never ever believe anything you read in the Mail that tries to pretend to be fact based information.
It is not and generally they have an overt agenda and long ago gave up any pretence of being a ‘serious’ newspaper that seeks to inform.
Under Dacre it has degenerated into a Sun clone targetted mostly at a female readership.
EVERY Newspaper and other part of the Media(even the BBC with its very biased reporting-often biased because of the enormous sums it receives from the EU) has a point of view and often presents the “facts”. So anybody who says that you should ignore everything in this or that Newspaper or TV Programme etc is a very dangerous person.
However we should be able to read the papers and then make up our own minds. If there is a Referendum the Pro’s and Anti’s will be free to put their point of view and the facts as they see them and attack the views and facts of the other side. We will all be able to make up our own minds hopefully fully informed.
If pointing out that you should pay a great deal more attention as to where you choose to get your ‘supposed’ facts from then I plead guilty to the charge that I am indeed a ‘very dangerous person’!
The sad truth that you and a lot of other folk miss is that there are ‘truths’ and ‘facts’ out there but they are inconvenienent when mustering your fantasy laden arguments.
Bias is always in the eye of the beholder.
I first got involved in Politics in 1964 at the General Election. I am still involved in Politics. My Father was a Scientist, My Mother was a School-Teacher. Through out my life I have been gathering facts and examining them closely. Some I have rejected. Some I have accepted in part. Other I have accepted in total. I may not have totally Mastered the technique(but I would challenge anybody and that includes you Cambridge_Blue who says that they have mastered the technique). But I am still learning. However on the whole I think that I am quite good at it. I will continue to read whichever Newspaper I want; Listen to and watch whatever TV or Radio Programmes that I want and listen to others opinions. I will not be censored neither will I allow myself to be threatened or forcibly influenced. I joined a particular Political Party in 1964 aged 14 years old I am still a Member of the same Political Party and along the way I have done a great deal in that Party(including for a while being an Elected Member of its National Executive). So I am well able to decide for myself as I suspect the vast majority of the UK population is whether it reads the Daily Mail or not.
Indeed you are free to read any amount of facts, partial facts, lies & propaganda you want and good luck with that.
My point is that much of the UK press is exceptionally partial and has an agenda that is dominated by powerful vested interests.
Most people are lazy and can’t be bothered to check most of the rubbish they get fed so yes it does matter a lot.
How many people actually know the difference between the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights for example?
How many people actually know the difference between the National Debt and the Government Deficit and more importantly which measure is more critical at present?
You may indeed be well read and a good judge of both facts and the issues but trust me on this – you are in the minority and that is why the ceaseless tide of partial comment pretending to be journalism in most of media isn’t just dumbing down the UK it has already succeeded!
40% want to leave. So 60% don’t.
Only the Daily Fail could make the 40% THE story. :-/
When/If there is a Referendum under the normal rules in the UK if 40% Vote to get out and 10% Vote to stay in and the remaining 50% do not Vote. Then while it could be argued that 60% did not want to leave I am sorry the 40% have Won and Won by a massive majority.
Don’t you just love the elective dictatorship in full flow LOL.
I’m sorry. Are you trying to argue that some other system should exist. I did not invent or indeed have any part in inventing the present system. It was invented many years before I was born. But it is the system that exists in the UK. Examination of just about every Election held in the UK for well over 100 years will show you the same results. Its the ones who Vote who count. The ones who sit at home and watch Coronation Street and do not Vote do not count at all in the decision. If you believe it should be different then Stand for Election and make that point. I doubt if you would win and I think that you would be hard pressed to come up with a workable system where those that do not bother to Vote actually decide the Election.
Yes our electoral system is not fit for purpose but who really cares.
And just because people don’t (or won’t) vote does not mean they do not count.
But it is still an elective dictatorship where any majority of nothing gets you all the spoils not just an appropriate share.
Winner takes all and stuff the rest eh.
Said like a true party hack – I like it!
I am certain that many far cleverer than me have tried to come up with a workable system where those on the Electorial Register who did not bother to vote are still included in the final results. But I would guess that every such attempt has failed. However may I invite you to try if you want.
There is a problem which you will find very difficult to overcome. That is that on the day the register comes into force it has a built in error and during its life the error continues to grow.
The most obvious part of that error is those registered who have since died. The register lasts for a year and during that year more registered voters die. So if you were to have a system where those registered to vote but did not were still taken into account in the results. Then that would mean that depending of whether the election was held early or late in the life of the register that more deceased voters would be included in the results.
I have never campaigned in Ireland but I once worked with an Irishman. Apparently in Ireland the dead used to vote. The Political Parties would keep an eye on who had died and would send along a supporter in their place. The motto was “Vote Early, Vote Often”.
I prefer the system generally in use in England where we have one Person One Vote. Before anybody says that there have been cases of Voting Fraud. Yes I know and I still hope that they do not happen and if anybody tries anything underhand that they caught.
In May I am due to stand for Re-Election. I have not decided if I am going to stand but I expect to. I am very happy with the system where those that are actually interested enough(and still alive) go out to Vote and decide the Result of the Election
its one world we cant afford not to trade with anyone we can
Chris can. He is retired and an ideologue.
Firstly I am not Retired just working towards retiring in a couple of years. The UK has long been a Trading Nation. Over the centuries we have traded in different products and with different Countries. Go back to the Middle Ages and the UK was very strong in the Wool Trade.I am not certain of the amount of Wool that we export today but I would guess that it is not great.
We should Trade across the Globe and sell every product or service that we can. Unfortunately when we joined the Common Market all those years ago we abandoned our relationships with so much of the World. I still think that that was a mistake. In addition over the years we have given up on whole industries.
Take just one example. Ship Building. In 1900 the vast majority of the Worlds Merchant Ships were built in the UK. Indeed several of the Japanese Battleships sunk during World War II were built in British Shipyards(remember the Japanese were our Allies in World War I).
I know that several will say “He’s on about Railways again. But years ago we built and exported Railway Locomotives across the World. Today the New Locomotives on the British Railway Network are built abroad.
We have given up Markets and Products often without a fight. What I am saying is that we should once again Export to Markets across the World, not just the EU, and sell whatever we can that those markets need.
I do not believe that it will be significantly more difficult to trade with the EU if we leave(because if they put up trade barriers to us then we will do the same for their exports and they sell more to us than we sell to them so they will be the losers).
Our Industry will then be free to put more efforts into selling around the World. As far as ebay is concerned I regularly sell outside the EU as I would guess that many ebayers do. So perhaps it will stimulate us to sell even more outside of the EU.
Nobody would disagree that any business should seek to sell where it can most profitably.
For most SME’s it is logical and far easier to sell into the EU for both products and services than say the BRIC countries.
There are exceptions but for most the EU should be the primary target and then move out from there if that still makes sense.
If you want to look at the options for the UK and EU membership then see here:
Focus on the Executive Summary which provides a far superior analysis than the partial crap claiming to be ‘research’ served up by the Mail.
We all know that we will end up voting to stay in the EU so learn to live with it now!
As I sell Books and the Books that I sell are all in English I do regularly sell to such as the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc of the English Speaking World. However I still sell occassionally to Germany, Netherlands, Pakistan etc.
So I already do sell across the World. What I am trying to say is that we should be outside of the EU with all its Red Tape and Crazy Regulations. Outside we can redevelop our relationships with the Old Commonwealth Nations that we so shamefully neglected after we joined the Common Market.
In fact we should be redeveloping our Trade Relationships with every Country on Planet Earth.
except Scotland ,those barmy buggers want to be seperate from the rest of the world starting with the UK, then they want to be part of europe where they will be anything but independent,
No I am happy to sell even to Scotland. In fact I regularly supply customers in Scotland and I welcome their business as much as I welcome every order that I receive.
Most serious businesses do not have the time to waste trading with every country on this planet unlike you.
As any decent marketeer will tell you it is about target markets & differentiation.
If you seriously think the EU is full of red tape & regulation you are in for a real shock when you get to any BRIC country let alone most other countries worldwide.
Selling products & some services (not all mind) into the EU is actually surprisingly straightforward as long as you understand the culture.
Just because you can sell a couple of dog eared books to somebody in the Commonwealth does not engender much confidence in me to follow such an example of vaulting business ambition.
Choose some serious business sectors that can compete outside of the EU on their own not ‘toytown’ ones like English books.
Whether you like it not we will be staying in the EU.
Get over it!
“Dog Eared Books”. Just because you have an IQ so low that it will not measure does not mean that anybody who sells Books automatically sells Books that they got from a Car Boot Sale. Many of us sell either Brand New Books(as are the majority of mine) or rated “As New” or similar.
As far as my ambition is concerned I am 62 years old and I have health problems my main ambition is to clear my existing stock and retire.
As far as selling to every country on the planet. I would be very happy to receive orders from anybody who wants my Books. Indeed I welcome orders from anybody anywhere. Now if that upsets some grand idea of yours then I am very sorry but I really do not care less. I will happily sell to anybody and I will try to give them all the very best of service.
Now to my choice of Books against what you Cambridge_Blue might consider to be a serious Product. I have been selling Books on my own behalf and before that on behalf of various Railway Societies(several of which are now Charities) since about 1970.
Now you might think that I should be selling this or that. However many of us who sell Books also Collect Books and many of us were collecting Books long before we started to sell them.
As you are so much an expert on what I should be selling might I ask you a question. Book Sellers sell the products of Book Publishers and of course they employ Book Printers and Binders to produce them and of course Authors to write them. So if there are no Book Sellers it must follow that there will ultimately be no Book Publishers etc.
Also of course we Book Sellers sell to people who like to read Books. So it must follow that No Booksellers there would be less or indeed ultimately no Book Readers. I would remind you that ALL the Knowledge of Mankind is in Books(OK over the last few years the Internet and ebooks etc have tried to take over but since the days of the Venerable Bede and later Caxton its been Books that have contained all the knowledge of Mankind).
I would also suggest that long after the electronic whizz bangs are only to be found in Car Boot Sales Books that are printed on paper will continue to be read and enjoyed and indeed treasured.
So if you think that at the age of 62 years I am going to give up my love of Books just because you say so I am very sorry you are are definitely far more stupid than even I thought.
I must say that even though I sell quite a lot to EU countries I would definately vote to leave.
It’s just not worth the cost paid in democratic accountability and bonkers regulation.
My dear Cornish ‘friend’ you can indulge in cheap insults as much as you like but your arguments wouldn’t pass muster in our local primary school.
I am quite happy with my IQ thanks and it has served me very well to date including travelling and selling to countries worldwide over several decades.
If you seriously think that selling a few mouldering & remaindered books about railways to the Commonwealth is some exemplar of why most businesses would be better off out of the EU then you really need to wake up and smell the coffee as the great leader once said.
Most businesses have to sell hard into the UK, then the EU and also outside if they can just to keep growing & profitable and to remain competitive.
A part time niche activity flogging niche books into niche markets to help keep a few charities going is worthy and to be applauded but it does not represent the reality for most SMEs here in the UK.
Which is why your arguments are based of a completely false set of assumptions and your lack of experience about the real world of business is all to plain to see.
“mouldering & remaindered books” You certainly do have a peculiar definition of “New Books”. I will agree that some of my New Books are Remaindered. However many are hot off the presses. A couple of days ago I listed one title only hours after the Publishers had taken delivery of it from the Printers/Binders and long before the majority of stockists nationwide had received their stocks. In case you think that this is a once in the lifetime occurrence it is in fact a fairly normal occurrence.
As a matter of interest while I have a strong and long lasting interest in Railways I do not just sell books about Railways.
In the World of SME’s and ebay there are many sellers selling a legion of differant products. Books are just one such product. You seem to look down on Books as being somehow not proper. I would therefore wonder just how many Books you have at home. There were some statistics quoted years ago about how many Books there was in the average home. I cannot remember the number now but I seem to remember at the time thinking that I had as many as the average small town. However the same statistics had a frightening number of homes where there was not one Book. I would suggest that this probably includes your home.
Again I enjoy reading a good book. It does not have to be on Railways. Indeed I think that amongst my books(those that I own and have collected over the years rather than the ones I have in stock at any one time)Railway Books are probably in the minority.
However if we are comparing our experience before ebay or in my case before I became a full time Bookseller(because for years I was only part-time having other jobs as well) if I could be bothered I would dig out a copy of my CV from years ago. In it you would see such as Group Internal Auditor of a large company when I was in my early 20’s and Company Accountant a few years later etc before I decided to follow a Full Time Career in Book Selling(Wholesale and Retail). So while my career to date may not satisfy your asperations I have been reasonably happy with it.
Before this discussion gets far too involved I should explain what a “Remaindered” Book is in case anybody like Cambridge_Blue is not certain.
When a Publisher publishes a New Book they should have an estimate(based upon the sales of similar books over the years) of just how many they are going to sell. Unfortunately these estimates are often not completely accurate. If they sell more the publisher may very well do a reprint. If they sell less the publisher has a big pile in the Warehouse taking up space that may be needed for the next new title to be published. So they decide to get rid of some(a partial remainder) or all(a full remainder) of the remaining books.
There are specialist Remainder Warehouses who will buy all the books to be remaindered(at a knock down price). The Remainder Warehouse will then sell the books to such as myself. However while the Remainder Warehouse may buy a thousand copies of one title I will tend to buy in much smaller quantities. There is a saying in Book Selling “The average Bookshop sells of the Average Book – 3 copies”. This saying used to annoy me when I was a Book Wholesaler. The number of Book Buyers in Bookshops who would order in 3’s. The reason well they expected to sell 3. However I would go into a Bookshop in say Taunton and they would buy 3 copies of a Book on Taunton and 3 of a book on Aberdeen. Common Sense would tell you that they would sell more on Taunton than Aberdeen but the saying told them to buy just 3 of each.
However the Books that the Publisher is selling off are NEW they are not faulty or damaged. They are just New and have not sold at Full Price. The Remainder Warehouse reprices them. Years ago it tended to be half price. So a Book had an original price of £19-95 Now Remaindered at £9-99. But today the remainder prices tend to be less(often much less) than half price.
But the Books are still New. They are identical to the New Books that the Warehouse was supplying to a Full Price Bookshop only a few days before. So if you know what you are doing you can obtain a real bargain. Indeed with a Partial Remainder where the Publisher continues to sell at Full Price those books that they have retained you can have the situation of a Full Price Bookshop on a High Street selling the Book at Full Price while a few doors down a “Bargain” Bookshop will have the same Book at a much lower price and the Books are identical.
Thanks Chris, fascinating.
This thread has drifted off topic and is getting a bit bickery, gentlemen.
Don’t forget this is a business forum and it’s preferable to conduct yourself in a businesslike manner.
And too, remember, we can limit your posts/prevent you posting as an act of mercy on other readers.
No Dan I havn’t forgotten this is a business forum but you are quite correct that we have drifted a long way away from the orginal topic.
Books and railways were never my specialist subjects!
Your offer to undertake an act of mercy for the other readers of this fine site reflects well on you as ever.
I will ‘bicker up’ forthwith.